Curse

Moloch Vein · Jul 25, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

This is a general brainstorming thread.

For quite some time I've felt that Spiteful Spirit leaves a lot to be desired for a good team. It certainly isn't an optimal elite to pack on a Curses player in a general configuration. One real killer is the 15e cost. Normally, sure, you don't care... but try to go into Domain of Secrets with a +40% skill cost and then have someone hit up QZ on you. Alright, special consideration, but you get my drift... 15e isn't a tiny cost. If things don't die quickly, you're screwed. IF they die quickly, it's fairly useless.

Another is the type of skill Spiteful really is, working on the opponents' strengths instead of your own. This is what really bothers me.

Question of mine is what to replace it with. There really haven't been too many other Curses elites useful in PvE. Looking into PvP doesn't help either. Wither? Yeah, a -4 degeneration hex with no other effect sure is worthwhile. Using Offering of Blood instead for energy-management? If you really need more energy management than Soul Reaping in PvE, you're a disaster of a player.

You know I've long advocated Assassin's Promise as the pre-eminent hexer elite, but this does lock you into /A and it's not too good on heroes.

All things considered, this is my best bet:

[Soul Bind]

This skill is actually immensely useful on a pressure-type PvE hex bar. It's spammable, it's got the nice, old-school chunky 30 second duration, it's a fast cast, and it actually delivers quite a punch against enemy healers. The change to this skill was a godsend.

If anyone has other ideas, post them here!

jiggles · Jul 25, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

With the recent pve/pvp slipt, id love to see FoC returned to its former glory. That said my necro uses FoC more than any other elite. The only other useful pve elite i can think of are soul bind (code needs to be changed on le forums) and [corrupt enchant]. Altough CE isnt popular with many necros i find that along with [suffering] you can inflict a hell of a lot of degen, and with CE's quick recharge and enchant stripping ability, it can be quite useful. In my opinion anyways.

That said thought the main downside to CE is trying to find a foe with an enchantment on it in the first place.

Shadow Slave · Jul 25, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Well I have always loved [skill]Feast of Corruption[/skill] and [skill]Lingering Curse[/skill] ....hopefully these skills we be looked at in the coming update and become viable options.

I tend to carry [skill]Wail of Doom[/skill] these days ~ or at least on a Hero and Micro as necessary.

Zidane Ortef · Jul 25, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Over all [Soul Bind] is a great Elite for curses and in certain cases extremely useful I tested it today when I vanquished Resplendent Makuun. I gave Soul Bind to Masters in place of his SS and as soon as we entered and started to fight he spams the hell out of it on everyone even if they don't have any sort of healing. Immediately I disabled it and micro him to cast it on Skree Griffins and on Josinq the Whisperer. Taking him out was extremely easy and having Soul Bind was a big help. But using it to totally replace SS isn't logical for zones where there is not problem healers. Here is some of my other Ideas.

[Pain of Disenchantment] has some synergy with [rip enchantment] but still not a great choice.
[Corrupt Enchantment] could be used to replace [rip enchantment] and open a spot for a different non elite skill.
[icy veins] I occasionally use this skill on Livia from time to time so it could also be a viable output for not carrying SS.

Over all with the choices we have at our disposal nothing quite appeals more than [spiteful spirit] on Monsters' with attack speed, movement speed, skill casting speed, and skill recharge rate are all increased to be 33-50% faster than normal.

Angel Killuminati · Jul 25, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

In Hardmode where creatures attack faster, surely SS is the number one choice in Curses line of skills?

jiggles · Jul 25, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Not really, in HM eneimies scatter with one cast of SS, kinda making it redundant but still workable on one foe

Snow Bunny · Jul 25, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Soul Bind? Moloch, I'd expect more from you.

What happens when there's no healers?

Maybe on a 40/40 set you could try FoC but that's not-optimal either. Stick with Assassin's promise and physical heavy groups.

AKB48 · Jul 25, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Soul Bind is basically a scourge healing in an elite's coat and in the Necromancer profession. (I personally think with its effect, Soul Bind been an elite is ridiculous, it needs more power)

But anyways, I think Corr. Enchantments is in general a good elite for Pve. But like what the op said, there really ISN'T much elite choice for nerco pve. FoC packs good damages but to rc is too long. CE needs enchantments to work, SS needs mobs to work.....etc.

personally i use suffering+arcane+foc in pve, i know it's a bit messed up but it still deals decent damage nevertheless. (and I really like FoC's graphic, so cool

)

Moloch Vein · Jul 25, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

What happens when there's no healers?

They die anyway.

Actually not having some sort of healing in your opposition is very rare. Dervishes, Monks, Ritualists all carry straight healing skills. There are monster heals (Inner Fire for one)... etc.

As for Soul Bind being Scourge Healing, that's absolutely true. It IS Scourge Healing with 1s casting time (and a penalty, nonetheless... now that is not fair.) However, it's in an attribute line that is actually useful, which makes all the difference.

The point isn't that Assassin's Promise is useless. Assassin's Promise is the best option. However there are cases where you can't go /A and you tend to look for an "inherent" elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

[Corrupt Enchantment] could be used to replace [rip enchantment] and open a spot for a different non elite skill.

That's sort of reverse thinking, lol.

komma · Jul 25, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Question of mine is what to replace it with. There really haven't been too many other Curses elites useful in PvE. Looking into PvP doesn't help either. Wither? Yeah, a -4 degeneration hex with no other effect sure is worthwhile. Using Offering of Blood instead for energy-management? If you really need more energy management than Soul Reaping in PvE, you're a disaster of a player.

You know I've long advocated Assassin's Promise as the pre-eminent hexer elite, but this does lock you into /A and it's not too good on heroes.

you pretty much summed it up in your OP, if your going to be replacing SS as an elite then you might aswell design a build based around the elite you chose.

FoC, soul bind, weaken knees, wither, corrupt enchant are probably the best alternatives to base and alternate PvE curse build around.

Rakim B · Jul 25, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

One real killer is the 15e cost. Normally, sure, you don't care... but try to go into Domain of Secrets with a +40% skill cost and then have someone hit up QZ on you. Alright, special consideration, but you get my drift... 15e isn't a tiny cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If you really need more energy management than Soul Reaping in PvE, you're a disaster of a player.

Quite a few good (usable) curses skills are 15e

You're best bet is probably [soul bind] if there are pesky healers in the area you will be in. Otherwise look for elites from other professions that will go well with your other skills. I for one am a big fan of [Hex eater vortex] on any offensive caster. Don't forget about [Glyph of renewal]

Turbobusa · Jul 25, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I personnaly tried soul bind and wasn't impressed at all by its effect. Simply too few healers in PvE imo, and its generally the first one down anyway.

I tried plague siggy, but I generally can handle the sac of plague sending. Longer condition duration is meaningless in pve.

I don't like corrupt enchantment with rip and rend out there. But yeah it can be used but its a waste imo.

WoD...meh. With all the shutdown already there and the poor duration, I find it very ineffective.

Signet of suffering and Icy veins lol no

Weaken knees is not interesting as an elite bull's strike. I'd use Coward anyday.

Lingering curse, depravity, OoA, Wither

FoC: go play an ele

Other elites imply spreading attributes, Tainted flesh asides which looks a bit like SS because it backfires 8 DPS in the face oof the mob. Not TOO bad. not great either.

In short while soul bind does not see use all the time it has a nice effect against multiple healers. Otherwise I'd go with tainted flesh (haven't tested pure theory on this one)

White Lies · Jul 25, 2008, 06:49 PM // 18:49

bah, i gave up on the curses elites and now i either run blood/curses hybrid with SV OR if i want a bit of expensive yet brilliant fun, GoR with Atrophy and GoLE...
Locking a boss with that in HM is gd and wen u run it with some Discord necro heros its rather amusingly deadly

That or i go condition crazy with Virulence+GoI, a couple of necros with Dicord and a Fevered Dreams mesmer...

All that is assuming u play as a necro.

~Lies

upier · Jul 25, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

This is a general brainstorming thread.

For quite some time I've felt that Spiteful Spirit leaves a lot to be desired for a good team. It certainly isn't an optimal elite to pack on a Curses player in a general configuration. One real killer is the 15e cost. Normally, sure, you don't care... but try to go into Domain of Secrets with a +40% skill cost and then have someone hit up QZ on you. Alright, special consideration, but you get my drift... 15e isn't a tiny cost. If things don't die quickly, you're screwed. IF they die quickly, it's fairly useless.

This is a joke, right?
The cost of a skill on a necro in PvE is a downside?!?!
Once again, you're joking right?

PvE necros spam Fiends.
25 energy spell.
25!!!

cellardweller · Jul 26, 2008, 02:40 AM // 02:40

[Empathic Removal][Expel Hexes][Divert Hexes] Keeping your physicals clean = more MoP ownage

[weapon of quickening] Weaker than AP, but maintainable on multiple party members

Calista Blackblood · Jul 26, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

[reapers mark] is too close a similarity to [assassins promise] along with a trashy degen so id rule that out

[soul leech] is a spell based [insidious parasite]and as such a waste of a slot

im preparing for flames but i havent seen anyone give [well of power] a glance yet,absurdly potent when used with [well of blood]

food for thought?

jayce · Jul 26, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

Altough CE isnt popular with many necros i find that along with [suffering] you can inflict a hell of a lot of degen, and with CE's quick recharge and enchant stripping ability, it can be quite useful. In my opinion anyways.

That said thought the main downside to CE is trying to find a foe with an enchantment on it in the first place.

try [Signet of Agony][Plague Sending][Ulcerous Lungs][Suffering] with the elite of your choice the next time you want to degen. just make sure that they are fleshies. -10 aoe degen for 21 seconds goes a long way with only 12 points invested in curses.

Jayce Of Underworld

jiggles · Jul 26, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

try [Signet of Agony][Plague Sending][Ulcerous Lungs][Suffering] with the elite of your choice the next time you want to degen. just make sure that they are fleshies. -10 aoe degen for 21 seconds goes a long way with only 12 points invested in curses.

Jayce Of Underworld

40 energy
[corrupt enchant] 5 energy

No thanks

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 26, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

I would only replace SS with foc, but then its got the same energy cost and cast time with double recharge with a precondition. SS is just the best because its damage with aoe.

zelgadissan · Jul 26, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

im preparing for flames but i havent seen anyone give [well of power] a glance yet

Personally I'm a big fan of it for a battery hero - in my experience heroes are retarded with BiP, but they can handle that and [Blood Ritual]. That said though, I'm thinking Moloch was looking for a Curses elite. I can't picture him speccing higher than 1 in blood

If that's the case, I initially thought Soul Bind couldn't be the best option, but after looking through them all, I guess it seriously might be. I would still probably take SS but with a 5 sec recharge Soul Bind is probably the top alternative, especially in HM areas with multiple monks in the mob.